Curse

Shriketalon · Oct 30, 2010, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

Now one thing I think everyone can agree on is that pvp players are not being recognized properly

I completely and utterly disagree with that statement. (Somebody has to do it.

)

Every single aspect of PvP is currently rewarded. If you master RA, you can display it. If you climb the ranks of heroism, you can show it off. If you were a hero-wrangling tactical master, you can enshrine it. If you proved yourself on the battlefields of guild versus guild, you can display it. If you fought the eternal war between the Luxons and Kurzicks, you can present both. If you threw a whole boatload of snowballs, that too. And all that faction you accumulate can be used for another monument, or finance the acquisition of almost every other item in the hall.

If this isn't enough, there's a simple reaons: that's all there is.

There isn't that much PvP content in this game. There are only six formats, plus a few cycling holiday events. Compare that to four campaign storylines, 65 missions, over 130 vanquishable zones, elite missions, dungeons, thousands of quests, hundreds of elite-toting bosses, three maps, eight reputation tracks, and pretty much everything from a story perspective that actually makes Tyria, well, Tyria.

Sorry to be rude, but in the context of the game as a whole, as well as the transition to the next generation, PvP just isn't that special.

It's all well and good to complain about not being given special treatment, but reexamine the monument for a second. We're talking about a system where you don't need Legendary Guardian or Legendary Vanquisher either, nor requires you to master every elite mission, or run every dungeon. Heck, there isn't even support for people who have completely every quest in the game, nor does it mandate that you must have slain the Lich to gain enough titles.

There's a simple reason for this: 50/50 does not represent mastering every single niche aspect of the game. It represents a diverse experience in many aspects, but never requires every single one be explored. You don't have to gain LDoA (thank Dwayna), nor gain Guardian, or complete the Hero monument, or get Kurzick if you prefer Luxon, or Luxon if you prefer Kurzick, or acquire every kind of tormented weapon, or construct every armor set in existence. It represents a reasonable amount of time spent exploring numerous aspects of a wildly diverse game.

Thus, there isn't much to the PvP aspect of the Hall, because there isn't much PvP content in Guild Wars. Period.

The only thing that can be said in regards to PvPers getting "properly rewarded" is this: it would be nice for PvP characters to have access to the hall, so that they can enshrine unlocked weaponry and armor there. In addition, the hall of valor's transformation which is linked to max title track progress could also use fame, whichever is higher.

You want more? Sorry, there isn't any more. PvP is a small aspect of the game in terms of pound-for-pound content, so it doesn't get much representation in the hall that allows the stories and accomplishments of Guild Wars 1 characters to carry across time to the next generation.

Shadowspawn X · Oct 30, 2010, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

The only thing that can be said in regards to PvPers getting "properly rewarded" is this:

This is where you completely miss the point. Its not about gw1 rewards its about gw2 recognition. Its about recognizing the efforts put forth in the previous game. Over five years ago people brought the game and intended to have an account that they could come back to from time to time and enjoy their account building on their progress.

Then abruptly Anet pulls the plug and says the game is over we don't like this one anymore we will make a better sequel. Now its not the players fault that everything they did is reset back to zero, the best way would have been to simply let characters transfer to the next game. The next best thing is the HoM where your new account in GW2 inherits certain perks recognizing prior achievements, not game altering but just a token of recognition.

You have a guy who pvp'd for years with high ranks who is not getting anything not even a title to carry over. You can't honestly think that is fair , but you might just think its funny because it didn't happen to you. Sure he could do the pve achievements, but thats not how he choose to play the game and he shouldn't have to be ignored. GWWAM carries over , yet nothing in pvp gets anything. I'm not seeing the logic in this at all, its not like pvp is not playing the game.

Shriketalon · Oct 30, 2010, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

You have a guy who pvp'd for years with high ranks who is not getting anything not even a title to carry over. You can't honestly think that is fair , but you might just think its funny because it didn't happen to you. Sure he could do the pve achievements, but thats not how he choose to play the game and he shouldn't have to be ignored. GWWAM carries over , yet nothing in pvp gets anything. I'm not seeing the logic in this at all, its not like pvp is not playing the game.

And that's why I mentioned that fame could be implemented like GWAMM. But that's not really the point. More to the point:

Things change and life moves on.

Rather than thinking about this as some sort of end of days, it helps to get some perspective. Guild Wars has had a great run. We've had good stories, fun gameplay, a nice community, and a great deal of enjoyment from a great experience. And that's what the Hall is meant to display.

The Hall of Monuments is nostalgia personified. It is there for the individual to look back on things he did, accomplishments he achieved, the characters (via armor) he created, the battles he won. It is not validation. It is not an assessment of skill, or mastery, or a determination of who Anet liked or hated, or a giant e-peen meant to be wagged in other's faces. It is an aesthetic memento to your gameplay experience, something you shape to be able to say "This. This is what Guild Wars meant to me."

If you want an additional, optional feature to commemorate a particular part of Guild Wars, that's a good, constructive suggestion. I, for example, would like few greens put on the Valor monument, such as Shiro's Blades, the Rose Focus, and the Traveler's Staff that commemorate specific moments in time. Others would like a monument to quests, because the hundreds of them simply aren't displayed well. Likewise, a monument to Fame might be very nice, one that displayed the emote you had earned (or other scaling PvP titles might work nicely, where they become more intricate with higher ranks).

But the OP's suggestion isn't constructive. It is asking for other players to be hindered in their efforts to construct a full hall so that a specific minority can feel better about themselves. That's not going to make the game better, it's just going provide some vindictive pleasure to a group that's mad that Anet doesn't cater to them enough.

At the end of the day, I don't give a damn about the status of the hall of monuments for someone I have never met, and will probably never interact with in the slightest. I'd rather everyone developed and built their hall in the manner they most enjoyed, because that's how good game experiences are forged.

So if you have an idea as to how PvP can be better represented in the hall, by all means, share it. But making things more irritating for others isn't doing that. Your hall will not shine brighter or be more reminiscent if someone you have never met doesn't complete it. It will only be better if it is improved in a way that lets you express your own, personal experience with Guild Wars in a better fashion.

Shadowspawn X · Oct 30, 2010, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Your hall will not shine brighter or be more reminiscent if someone you have never met doesn't complete it. It will only be better if it is improved in a way that lets you express your own, personal experience with Guild Wars in a better fashion.

No one needs to complete it , just have a chance to put their stuff in it and pvp'rs don't have that chance. Because they have no slots for high ranks or multiple pvp titles. Zaishen is not a pvp title its on par with party and sweet tooth just farm buy stacks of a commodity and click away.

Also I'm a pve'r just trying to be fair here.

Shriketalon · Oct 30, 2010, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowspawn X

No one needs to complete it , just have a chance to put their stuff in it and pvp'rs don't have that chance. Because they have no slots for high ranks or multiple pvp titles. Zaishen is not a pvp title its on par with party and sweet tooth just farm buy stacks of a commodity and click away.

Changing Zaishen won't solve the grievance you just listed.

Look, it the PvP crowd wants their accomplishments detailed more accurately, there are ways to do this. One suggestion would be a way for statues that demand a certain rank to adjust as that rank goes higher. So, for example, your hero statue would have Wolf, Tiger, Phoenix, and Dragon shapes, and increasing the rank would make the statue more impressive. Another way would be a Balthazar statue that increased in proportion with the amount of Balth faction you had accumulated over your entire career. Or, in addition, those individuals who had won tournaments that displayed trophies could transfer them over to the Hall of Monuments.

Adding these features to the Hall would improve it. Taking things away would not. Changing the Zaishen title won't let PvPers display their accomplishments any better than before. Solving a problem means addressing its source, not going after a scapegoat.

prinzess of life · Oct 31, 2010, 01:42 PM // 13:42

Shriketalon , go for Regina's job, guildwars community need's a communnity relations manager with your eloquence and forthrightness.

jazilla · Oct 31, 2010, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shriketalon

Solving a problem means addressing its source, not going after a scapegoat.

The source of the problem as it pertains to this thread is giving players a way to get their PvP statue without having to do any Pvp at all because they can buy z-keys with money they made doing PvE.

I am not saying all my suggestions are the right answer as there is no right answers to this topic, but I also don't think getting the statue that is called a "PvP" statue by purchasing something(z-keys) plays into the spirit of the game. My opinion is that you should have to play some PvP to attain that statue because it is a "PvP" statue.

I posted a theory on here about some ANET employees not liking PvP and I got some confirmation on that in ID1 of LA last night when an ANET employee talked about not being any good at PvP. I understand them wanting to let people get to 50/50 without having to do PvP, but then why not just get rid of the PvP statue altogether? Honestly, that would be more akin to the "source of the problem" that you are talking about.

cataphract · Oct 31, 2010, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

It just lessens the reward feeling of what are the hardest titles IMO to get: The PvP titles.

ROFL

Hero: IWAY your way to rank 9, 10, 11, 12, ...
Champion: Buy your rank by resigning games at obscure hours.
Zaishen: Cheat the ladder, exploit random people on the forums, buy gold from RTM companies.

While it takes a bit of skill to get PvP titles it matters more how much of a dick you can be to others and how much are you willing to exploit whatever there is to exploit and circumvent.

Whenever I hear someone saying that PvP takes skill and that PvPers should get something more than the PvE players I start laughing uncontrollably followed by banging my forehead on the table once I realise they're not trolling.

It's a sad state of affairs when PvP doesn't take almost no skill at all and yet PvPers whine and qq about not getting stuff.

RedStar · Oct 31, 2010, 04:46 PM // 16:46

@prinzess : sorry if it sounded like I called you a liar. Congratulations on the way you obtained your titles. You did acquire them by killing others, yet it's something not a lot of people do since they introduced DTSC/MQSC.

Before reading : because no titles for AB/FA/JQ currently exists, when I say PvP it doesn't refer to those titles.

Quote:

Every single aspect of PvP is currently rewarded.[...]And all that faction you accumulate can be used for another monument, or finance the acquisition of almost every other item in the hall.

The exact same thing can be said about any titles except the money titles, cartographer and skill hunter (unless you are that much lucky and got every green).

Quote:

There isn't that much PvP content in this game. There are only six formats, plus a few cycling holiday events.

If you closely look at it, there isn't that much format for PvE : kill monsters, seek person, obtain item, finish it quickly, protect someone. The difference between all those tasks is the difficulty, but PvE doesn't "evolve" : the monsters in a zone don't change, the item you must search isn't randomly chosen. Once you've got the hang of it, it seems easy to you.
In PvP : the builds changes, the enemies are never the same, you must adjust your build to be able to counter as much builds as you can. (This is way people want skill updates : to get rid of builds that counter too much things and to create new builds).

Quote:

It is an aesthetic memento to your gameplay experience

This is where the problem lies : with zaishen you get a statue stating that you played PvP even thought you could just have bought it. Of course if ANet didn't decide to make a difference between "PvP titles" and other statues, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
It's not that people want to be rewarded more than others, it's just that it's kind of illogical to reward someone something for something they didn't do.
Let's use a little imagination : ANet decides to allow people to put an armor in the HoM even if they only have the boots. Weird isn't it ? The calculator tells you that you have an obsidian armor yet you don't. Just like it tells a bunch of person that they have played enough PvP even if they didn't.

ANet wanted people to play both sides of this game : remember when to get out of Pre-searing you had to PvP ? Then all those little arenas ? Then the fact that your region had to win in the HoH to get access to FoW/UW ?
I don't get (and won't ever) all those PvE or PvP only persons.
The HoM is in a PvE area, if you want all those items for GW2, you MUST play PvE. Now if you want that 50/50 it's only normal that you go and play the other side of the game.
And since the HoM has many flaws (no quests title, no statue for doing Tombs, all those complaints with valor) you have to chose between getting into a GvG guild, a HA guild or RA (or Codex....).

And to get 40 statues in your HoM, maybe you don't need to have legendary vanquisher or legendary guardian, or even kill the Lich. But if you don't, you have to choose between 2 or 6 other titles and you'll realize quickly enough that it may be easier to do those titles than to get LDoA, treasure hunter, wisdom OR a PvP title.
(You miss 6 titles for not killing the Lich : Hero/Protector/Guardian of Tyria, legendary Guardian, Tyria/Legendary cartographer. It takes a lot of motivation to get LDoA, treasure hunter, wisdom ,ale hound, survivor and eternal conqueror of DoA instead).

Oh and knowing Anet, if they one day decide to introduce a title for FA/JQ/AB, everyone would have to start from scratch.

Quote:

Hero: IWAY your way to rank 9, 10, 11, 12, ...
Champion: Buy your rank by resigning games at obscure hours.

If it's that easy to obtain them, why do people whine to the fact that it requires a PvP title ? And on this thread : to the idea that the zaishen title should not count as a PvP title ?

jazilla · Nov 03, 2010, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

ROFL

Hero: IWAY your way to rank 9, 10, 11, 12, ...
Champion: Buy your rank by resigning games at obscure hours.
Zaishen: Cheat the ladder, exploit random people on the forums, buy gold from RTM companies.

While it takes a bit of skill to get PvP titles it matters more how much of a dick you can be to others and how much are you willing to exploit whatever there is to exploit and circumvent.

Whenever I hear someone saying that PvP takes skill and that PvPers should get something more than the PvE players I start laughing uncontrollably followed by banging my forehead on the table once I realise they're not trolling.

It's a sad state of affairs when PvP doesn't take almost no skill at all and yet PvPers whine and qq about not getting stuff.

i shouldn't have to explain it to you that i meant to HONESTLY get the pvp titles. thanks for making a mockery out of this whole thread though and doing it on purpose.

Maver1ck87 · Nov 03, 2010, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Serious PvPers dont care cos life is more important and ZOMG ITS JUST THE HOM

Casual PvPers DO care cos they want all their PvE buddies to not have the 2 HoM points <- ZOMG GROW UP

PvEers DONT care cos they get easy HoM points

I just dont care that other people can get the 2 points easily and that the fact i have champ hero and glad title dosent give me anything extra..... I JUST DONT CARE COS IT AINT IMPORTANT... its not like it makes them good at PvP? so seriously care less and go outside, breath fresh air or meet a GURL!!! they are good ya know?

fowlero · Nov 03, 2010, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

ROFL

Hero: IWAY your way to rank 9, 10, 11, 12, ...
Champion: Buy your rank by resigning games at obscure hours.
Zaishen: Cheat the ladder, exploit random people on the forums, buy gold from RTM companies.

While it takes a bit of skill to get PvP titles it matters more how much of a dick you can be to others and how much are you willing to exploit whatever there is to exploit and circumvent.

Whenever I hear someone saying that PvP takes skill and that PvPers should get something more than the PvE players I start laughing uncontrollably followed by banging my forehead on the table once I realise they're not trolling.

It's a sad state of affairs when PvP doesn't take almost no skill at all and yet PvPers whine and qq about not getting stuff.

Near enough every title in this game is buyable, doesn't mean every does it so what's your point?

Whilst i don't agree that PvP should get anything more, your an idiot if you don't believe PvP takes skill at higher end.

On-Topic:

No need to remove zaishen as a PvP title.

Way i see it, PvEers would be annoyed as hell if they were forced to get glad/hero/champ or w/e.

PvPers couldn't give two shakes that people can get HoM done without the title. Plus it's secured the price of zkeys slightly higher which is cool.

Just unnecessary.

Clobimon · Nov 03, 2010, 03:04 PM // 15:04

The real point of the original topic certainly can't be about people getting a few measly points for their HoM from Zaishen because they haven't pvp'd their lives away. ! And, to be completely honest, it feels like a total pvp mentality to complain about it in the fashion presented; take it away because it probably wasn't earned. The mentality that everything is a competition, it's all for recognition and ego is being carried into this.

The obvious truth is that Zaishen is the easiest target to aim complaints at for someone that feels jaded that he spent 95% of his GW's gameplay running around in arenas and thus did not earn many points by stacking a pve character. I can't believe a person that pvp'd a lot yet is also moving close to 50 points would complain about Zaishen. That is unless the "it's a competition" feeling is an overriding factor again.

How about we just drop the focus on Zaishen and redirect it to what a pvp only player might actually think is fair? ("Fair" - man I hate that childish word) Anyway... what you're probably really wanting is a completely separate Hall; a pvp HoM segregated from the current HoM. A way for those that rarely pve to fill a hall only through pvp that would give pvp items and titles in GW2. I'd have to say it's likely too late for it, but that is probably the most direct way to achieve that fairness.

On the other hand... Knowing what pvp is like and how some of the players can be do you think it actually matters what you earn/get/display/wear from GW in GW2?? You get beat down while wearing an HoM earned armor and you'll hear, "Go back to GW1, noob!" You can count on it. Recognition, achievement, honor, etc. in pvp is earned by pvp play in THE game you're playing, not any other. You may as well have earned that HoM armor via the Wilderness in Runescape for all anyone is going to care.

jazilla · Nov 03, 2010, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

PvPers couldn't give two shakes that people can get HoM done without the title. Plus it's secured the price of zkeys slightly higher which is cool.

Just unnecessary.

what about those of us who care about PvE/PvP/Hom Etc. in equal amounts? it just doesn't seem right to me that every PvP title you could get that would go in your HoM would take longer than getting the z-title just by default of turning in z-keys from the balth faction you turned in from repeatable pvp zaishen quests. i find it odd that more people don't take exception to this. I guess more people would care if there was a wearable PvP Title given from the HoM Calculator for GW2. Then, EVERY PvP player would care if the z-title was a PvP title. I honestly hope they get rid of PvP Titles in GW2.

Swingline · Nov 05, 2010, 08:58 AM // 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

what about those of us who care about PvE/PvP/Hom Etc. in equal amounts? it just doesn't seem right to me that every PvP title you could get that would go in your HoM would take longer than getting the z-title just by default of turning in z-keys from the balth faction you turned in from repeatable pvp zaishen quests. i find it odd that more people don't take exception to this. I guess more people would care if there was a wearable PvP Title given from the HoM Calculator for GW2. Then, EVERY PvP player would care if the z-title was a PvP title. I honestly hope they get rid of PvP Titles in GW2.

totally agree about not having pvp titles in gw2. i srsly hope they make pvp in gw2 fun for everyone and not have it full of ppl who r there to just grind points of some kind so they can drool over their e-peen bc they beat a bunch of ppl at one aspect of a video game.

matter of time · Nov 05, 2010, 10:42 AM // 10:42

This is it. Unfortunatelly, currently there are plenty of high ranked pvp wearing obsidain armours and chaos gloves standing in kamadan with their high end pets ... this is a real sense of their pvp ...

lodgeinator · Nov 05, 2010, 07:34 PM // 19:34

I got my rank 3 by using balthazar to get keys (which i got from pvp) should i be denied a pvp title?

fowlero · Nov 05, 2010, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

what about those of us who care about PvE/PvP/Hom Etc. in equal amounts? it just doesn't seem right to me that every PvP title you could get that would go in your HoM would take longer than getting the z-title just by default of turning in z-keys from the balth faction you turned in from repeatable pvp zaishen quests. i find it odd that more people don't take exception to this. I guess more people would care if there was a wearable PvP Title given from the HoM Calculator for GW2. Then, EVERY PvP player would care if the z-title was a PvP title. I honestly hope they get rid of PvP Titles in GW2.

Whilst it'd be nice to see something for the PvP titles (aside from zaishen), it would cause so much more of an outcry from those feeling insulted now they'd be "forced" to PvP than it would please PvP players. Anet would be shooting themselves in the foot.

Arguably it's unfair for those of us who have those titles, and it's a little downing that people can gain just as much by buying 200 keys (not that people haven't gotten it through PvPing). However any other way would cause uproar to the majority, and we know how that works.

Then again, those with LDoA got shifted in much the same way.

*lemming* · Nov 05, 2010, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by lodgeinator

I got my rank 3 by using balthazar to get keys (which i got from pvp) should i be denied a pvp title?

This has been brought up enough times in this thread already.

Fillyra · Nov 05, 2010, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Notsigned, I could go off a whole list of reasons but to put it bluntly: PvE is more fun.